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Tyson-Holyfield 1

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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Duggerman
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Holyfield really got Mike's attention early in the first round when he struck him with two left hooks to the body followed by a third left hook to the head. Tyson froze in his tracks and you could see on his face that he was stunned.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Evolution
Duggerman wrote
Holyfield really got Mike's attention early in the first round when he struck him with two left hooks to the body followed by a third left hook to the head. Tyson froze in his tracks and you could see on his face that he was stunned.
Mike was not used to getting hit like that. Evander fought with skill, courage and strength. He'd always beat Tyson.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Kid Dynamite
Evolution wrote
Mike was not used to getting hit like that. Evander fought with skill, courage and strength. He'd always beat Tyson.
I disagree. If Evander decides to fight as a counterpuncher, he'd get mowed down. It'd be like Frazier versus Quarry. If Evander tries to go toe to toe, he'd get hurt bad, great chin or not. I don't see how Evander could ever have Tyson's number.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Entaowed
In reply to this post by Evan Fields
Much as I would like to admire his heart, when you consider all the clinching, head butting, low blows, punching in the clinches, PLUS PED usage, was he not a big fraud.  He was not naturally that big, even as a heavy weight I recall his leg measurements as 13 calf & 22 thigh-very small for a modern heavyweight.

I cannot remotely excuse someone who rises to prominence by using drugs to transform their body, then lying about it.  A cheater & liar, this is the opposite of fair competition.  In any sport you are taking money & glory away from others by doing this.  Deeply dishonorable.  Seems he never could have challenged Tyson without drugging up.  He should have stayed a great Cruiserweight.

Anyone have any reason to doubt these citations from his Wikipedia page?


On February 28, 2007, Holyfield was anonymously linked to Applied Pharmacy Services, a pharmacy in Alabama that is currently under investigation for supplying athletes with illegal steroids and human growth hormone (HGH). He denies ever using performance enhancers.[34]

Holyfield's name does not appear in the law enforcement documents reviewed. However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield—October 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.[35]

On March 10, 2007 Holyfield made a public announcement that he would be pursuing his own investigation into the steroid claims in order to clear his name.[36]

Holyfield was again linked to HGH in September 2007, when his name came up following a raid of Signature Pharmacy in Orlando, Florida.[37] As of September 2007, Signature Pharmacy is under investigation for illegally supplying several professional athletes with steroids and HGH.[38
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Urban Legend
Entaowed wrote
Anyone have any reason to doubt these citations from his Wikipedia page?
Yeah, because it's wikipedia.   Anyone can edit those pages.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Entaowed
Right, but they list sources, each allegation has citations.  Wikipedia is usually accurate, but not enough by itself for final proof or academic scholarship.  But you can check the sources, & research this a gazillion other ways.  I am the 1st person to reserve judgment & not jump to conclusions-& did so for people like McGuire for years.  Because as a long time lifter I know that there is a small % of folks who can get his size naturally & there was no good evidence.  Using the precursor hormone Andro was legal, could not fault him there.

Then he shut up before Congress, that was damning enough.  There is much more on Holyfield, so it seems to me he at least met the Real Deal(er).  It is not a rational & impartial consideration to dismiss all on Wikipedia, regardless of the amount & quality of 1) other evidence, & 2) the sources they cite.

He seems like a huge cheat & liar.  If anyone can show how all the evidence against him is wrong or inconclusive, tell us why.  Precisely, why, not wishful thinking, head in the sand &/or delusion.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Rosco
Entaowed wrote
Right, but they list sources, each allegation has citations.  Wikipedia is usually accurate, but not enough by itself for final proof or academic scholarship.  But you can check the sources, & research this a gazillion other ways.  I am the 1st person to reserve judgment & not jump to conclusions-& did so for people like McGuire for years.  Because as a long time lifter I know that there is a small % of folks who can get his size naturally & there was no good evidence.  Using the precursor hormone Andro was legal, could not fault him there.

Then he shut up before Congress, that was damning enough.  There is much more on Holyfield, so it seems to me he at least met the Real Deal(er).  It is not a rational & impartial consideration to dismiss all on Wikipedia, regardless of the amount & quality of 1) other evidence, & 2) the sources they cite.

He seems like a huge cheat & liar.  If anyone can show how all the evidence against him is wrong or inconclusive, tell us why.  Precisely, why, not wishful thinking, head in the sand &/or delusion.
You sound like you've done your research on the man. Do you know which fights Holyfield enhanced himself for? It was rumored that he was on PEDs for the Tyson fights but the Tyson camp ordered him to take a drug test and he passed.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Entaowed
Rosco wrote
Entaowed wrote
Right, but they list sources, each allegation has citations.  Wikipedia is usually accurate, but not enough by itself for final proof or academic scholarship.  But you can check the sources, & research this a gazillion other ways.  I am the 1st person to reserve judgment & not jump to conclusions-& did so for people like McGuire for years.  Because as a long time lifter I know that there is a small % of folks who can get his size naturally & there was no good evidence.  Using the precursor hormone Andro was legal, could not fault him there.

Then he shut up before Congress, that was damning enough.  There is much more on Holyfield, so it seems to me he at least met the Real Deal(er).  It is not a rational & impartial consideration to dismiss all on Wikipedia, regardless of the amount & quality of 1) other evidence, & 2) the sources they cite.

He seems like a huge cheat & liar.  If anyone can show how all the evidence against him is wrong or inconclusive, tell us why.  Precisely, why, not wishful thinking, head in the sand &/or delusion.
You sound like you've done your research on the man. Do you know which fights Holyfield enhanced himself for? It was rumored that he was on PEDs for the Tyson fights but the Tyson camp ordered him to take a drug test and he passed.
That I WOULD need to research.  I do not know if it is clear how long he used, but his Wikipedia page has the humorous corruption a preliminary investigation uncovered, I posted already, when an address laughably like Holyfield's in a Balco-like lab listed a phone #...That Evander answered!

He would have been historically great at LHW or Crusierweight.  But PEDs gave him the size & explosive energy (combined with his admittedly admirable efforts) to cheat his way to the top of the HW ranks.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Duggerman
Administrator
In reply to this post by Kid Dynamite
Kid Dynamite wrote
If Evander decides to fight as a counterpuncher, he'd get mowed down. It'd be like Frazier versus Quarry. If Evander tries to go toe to toe, he'd get hurt bad, great chin or not. I don't see how Evander could ever have Tyson's number.
One thing I noticed about Holyfield is that although he has an excellent chin, he doesn't take body punches as well. Tyson hurt him twice during the first fight; Once when he landed a right hook to the body followed by a left to the head, and once again when he landed another right hook to the body and came up the middle with the uppercut.

I've seen Evander hurt by body punches from other fighters, too. That's why it's frustrating for me to watch these fights. This was a winnable fight for Tyson, but he didn't throw enough combinations. Those body punches were getting Evander's attention.

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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Duggerman
Administrator
Holyfield was having stamina problems during this fight. He was resting in those clinches. Tyson was fighting like a zombie from the 6th round onward.

Here is a blog I wrote several years ago about the Tyson-Holyfield fights.

http://ajdugger.weebly.com/1/post/2011/06/14-year-anniversary-of-the-bite-fight.html
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Entaowed
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Naturally strong?  Only to a point.  PEDs also, see his Wikipedia page.  The address for Holyfield was comically similar to his name &* nickname, though his real name was not listed.

Like Lance, largely "Pharmstrong".
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

BAD INTENTIONS
Entaowed wrote
Naturally strong?  Only to a point.  PEDs also, see his Wikipedia page.  The address for Holyfield was comically similar to his name &* nickname, though his real name was not listed.

Like Lance, largely "Pharmstrong".
Evander was not on roids when he fought Mike...... The Tyson camp suspected he was so they ordered him to take a test..... Evander took the test after the fight and it turned out negative..... Mike didn't want to believe that Evander was so strong.

Duggerman wrote
Holyfield was having stamina problems during this fight. He was resting in those clinches. Tyson was fighting like a zombie from the 6th round onward.
 
Here is a blog I wrote several years ago about the Tyson-Holyfield fights.

http://ajdugger.weebly.com/1/post/2011/06/14-year-anniversary-of-the-bite-fight.html 
I love reading your work man... Have you considered writing for one of the modern boxing magazines? They could use you!
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Evolution
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
Naturally strong?  Only to a point.  PEDs also, see his Wikipedia page.  The address for Holyfield was comically similar to his name &* nickname, though his real name was not listed.

Like Lance, largely "Pharmstrong".
I'm requoting myself from earlier in this thread in case you missed it.

Evolution wrote
Evander is much stronger than he looks. I met his father once, and his father is a huge guy. He told me that he used to pick up trucks. Evander is oddly strong for a man his size and he gets that from genetics. I sparred with Evander on many occasions and if he can shove me around the ring then it came as no surprise that he could do the same to Mike Tyson.
I know Evander personally and it saddens me when people talk shit about the man without knowing all the facts. If Evander used steroids it was never in my presence, nor at the time of the Tyson fights.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Evan Fields
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
Much as I would like to admire his heart, when you consider all the clinching, head butting, low blows, punching in the clinches, PLUS PED usage, was he not a big fraud.  He was not naturally that big, even as a heavy weight I recall his leg measurements as 13 calf & 22 thigh-very small for a modern heavyweight.

I cannot remotely excuse someone who rises to prominence by using drugs to transform their body, then lying about it.  A cheater & liar, this is the opposite of fair competition.  In any sport you are taking money & glory away from others by doing this.  Deeply dishonorable.  Seems he never could have challenged Tyson without drugging up.  He should have stayed a great Cruiserweight.

Anyone have any reason to doubt these citations from his Wikipedia page?


On February 28, 2007, Holyfield was anonymously linked to Applied Pharmacy Services, a pharmacy in Alabama that is currently under investigation for supplying athletes with illegal steroids and human growth hormone (HGH). He denies ever using performance enhancers.[34]

Holyfield's name does not appear in the law enforcement documents reviewed. However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield—October 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.[35]

On March 10, 2007 Holyfield made a public announcement that he would be pursuing his own investigation into the steroid claims in order to clear his name.[36]

Holyfield was again linked to HGH in September 2007, when his name came up following a raid of Signature Pharmacy in Orlando, Florida.[37] As of September 2007, Signature Pharmacy is under investigation for illegally supplying several professional athletes with steroids and HGH.[38
That's where I got "Evan Fields" from. lol. But Evander has never tested positive for growth horomones. Those are allegations. Here is an article about it.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/02/28/holyfield/index.html
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Duggerman
Administrator
Holyfield was accused of using 'roids but nothing was ever concrete. If he was really caught, he'd have been banned from boxing and it would hurt his legacy. It's kind of like the Michael Jackson fiasco. Yes, Jackson was accused more than once. Was there ever any evidence? No. Mike Tyson was accused of rape. Was there any evidence that he did it? No. If there's no concrete evidence, you have to give the subject the benefit of a doubt. Wouldn't you if you were accused of something false? This is the reporter in me talking...gotta be objective.

What is concrete, however, is that Holyfield fought a dirty fight. I forgot what round it happened in but he hit Tyson low. Some of the headbutts in this fight were intentional, others were not. Holyfield dips low for leverage before he attacks.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Malik Wright
Banned User
Duggerman wrote
Holyfield was accused of using 'roids but nothing was ever concrete. If he was really caught, he'd have been banned from boxing and it would hurt his legacy. It's kind of like the Michael Jackson fiasco. Yes, Jackson was accused more than once. Was there ever any evidence? No. Mike Tyson was accused of rape. Was there any evidence that he did it? No. If there's no concrete evidence, you have to give the subject the benefit of a doubt. Wouldn't you if you were accused of something false? This is the reporter in me talking...gotta be objective.

What is concrete, however, is that Holyfield fought a dirty fight. I forgot what round it happened in but he hit Tyson low. Some of the headbutts in this fight were intentional, others were not. Holyfield dips low for leverage before he attacks.
Yea. Only an idiot would assume someone used PEDs just because wikipedia said so.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Shane
^^I'm inclined to agree, bud.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Urban Legend
In reply to this post by Malik Wright
Thats what I said. I'm thinking Entawoed or whatever his name is is biased towards Evander. Believing wikipedia is absurd enough, and their "sources" about Evander are moot. Evander was accused but never caught using. A lot of heavyweights' bodies matured when they were in their 30s, not just Evander. Joe Louis looked bulky after WW2, Lennox Lewis went up in weight around the time of the Mercer fight, Muhammad Ali was 'beefier' after his layoff, etc, etc, etc, etc. Most heavyweights fill out after 30 and no one is accusing them of steroid use.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Rosco
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
Holyfield really got Mike's attention early in the first round when he struck him with two left hooks to the body followed by a third left hook to the head. Tyson froze in his tracks and you could see on his face that he was stunned.
One of the key ways to beat Mike is to earn his respect in the first round. When Evander didn't wince after the right hand Tyson landed at the opening bell, I think Tyson knew he was in for a fight.
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Re: Tyson-Holyfield 1

Entaowed
In reply to this post by Malik Wright
Only a mean & childish person would call someone an idiot, or agree with the 1st guy, because they believed someone is wrong.  The ABCs of decency elude you.

Now as to whether I am wrong, or biased AGAINST Holyfield.  Wikipedia is not a perfect source, though it is overwhelmingly correct it may be off.  While I would not respond in (un)kind & call names, how is it smart to disregard the sources, & just ASSUME Wikipedia is wrong?  That is wholly undiscerning.

Just Google it, check other sources.  I am well aware about athletes filling out-though it tends to be also some fat, & as in all the examples given, the change is not as dramatic as a natural light heavy weight to a really cut HW that weighs what Tyson did.  And most of the weight on the upper body.

Still, I caution many that some naturally have outlier potential.  In my observations for years, lifting in many gyms (for a while the oldest continually operating one in the nation, Mid-City) asking questions of some hosses, reading about max. muscular potential in sites like bodyrecomposition.com, Casey Butt's (no jokes allowed), & others...A very small % w/dinosaur bones may get to be ~ 250 at 10-15% body fat.

But Holyfield & Big Mac & Sosa & so many others were not thus genetically blessed.

I have zero bias against Evander.  I admire his heart.  There are many who i decry rumors with no evidence about, when anyone MAY have used.  But if someone cheated their way to the top, stealing glory, money, success from others in a zero sum game, they should be condemned for that.

I watched the fight where Tyson bit off part of his ear, & was rooting for Evander.  But I cannot deny his head butting hen it was brought to my attention, & unless someone can actually EXAMINE the evidence & show that it is poor, I believe he was a user.

Some need to ask themselves: do I have a psychological need to believe a guy I like is innocent?  The answer is usually yes.  Go ahead, without sad safely distant Internet flaming, research it a bit & see if you can honestly say you think he was clean.  I will be open minded.

 

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